When you work with clients on PR initiatives, there are expectations.
Expectations around earning coverage in certain publications.
Expectations around how long it might take for coverage to appear.
Expectations that all it takes is for a public relations pro to send a reporter they know an email – and the reporter just magically says, “Yes!” – and poof, the story appears.
The truth is, there’s more that goes into the work of a PR pro than meets the eye.
If you’re on the client side, what should you expect when you work with a PR consultant?
If you’re on the PR side, what can you do to help set expectations appropriately?
I’ll be talking about it all with Crystal Richard, president of Crystal Richard & Company. Crystal is an award-winning entrepreneur and publicist who helps small businesses, not-for-profit organizations, and brands make waves in the media.
Show summary:
In this episode of PR Explored, host Michelle Garrett, a PR consultant, author and writer, talks with public relations consultant Crystal Richard about managing client expectations in the realm of public relations.
They delve into Crystal’s background, which includes over 15 years in the PR industry and founding her own company, Crystal Richard & Co, which has been operating for nine years. Crystal also shares details about her lifestyle and travel brand, East Coast Mermaid.
The discussion covers the critical aspect of setting realistic client expectations around media coverage, including the time it takes to secure placements, the importance of trade publications, and the role of consistency in pitching.
Michelle and Crystal also address common client misunderstandings regarding the instant results in PR, the value of press releases, and the impact of shrinking newsroom staffs on media relations strategies.
They emphasize the need for clients to be proactive and understanding about the intricacies and timelines involved in media outreach and coverage.
Crystal offers valuable insights into effective media pitching, the significance of being available for media opportunities, and tips for businesses looking to handle their own PR.
The conversation serves as a significant guide for both PR professionals and clients on navigating the complexities of the public relations landscape.
00:00 Welcome to PR Explored
00:59 Meet Crystal Richard: PR Expert and Lifestyle Brand Founder
01:38 Crystal’s Unique PR Journey and Media Adventures
04:16 Discussing PR Expectations and Client Realities
06:28 The Challenges of Media Coverage and Client Education
12:17 The Importance of Setting Realistic PR Goals
24:32 Navigating Media Relations and Press Releases
32:06 The Importance of Press Releases in Modern PR
32:56 Effective Press Release Distribution Strategies
36:22 Adapting to Shrinking Newsrooms
39:36 Leveraging Thought Leadership and Affiliate Links
42:38 DIY PR: Tips for Small Businesses
44:20 Consistency and Persistence in PR Efforts
47:50 Building Relationships with Journalists
50:14 Setting Realistic PR Expectations
56:14 Crisis PR and Timing Considerations
57:37 Final Thoughts and Encouragement
Show notes:
Crystal Richard’s site: https://www.crystalrichard.com/
Follow Crystal Richard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/crystalrichard/
Full transcript:
Navigating PR Expectations and Realities with Crystal Richard
What to Expect When You_re Expecting PR
Michelle: [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to today’s episode of PR Explored. I am so excited to be back and, I wanna say just welcome to PR Explored. It’s a PR podcast where we delve into trends and topics related to public relations. I’m your host, Michelle Garrett. I’m a public relations consultant and writer, and my guest today is Crystal. Richard. Thank you so much for being here, crystal. I have known you online forever, and I’m so excited.
Crystal: Thank you so much for inviting me to be on the show. I’m excited to be here. Yay.
Michelle: Yay. So I know, I know all the things that you do, I, or a lot of the things, I know you do a lot of different things. I would love for you to talk a little bit about, what you do.
I know you, like I said, I know you have a few different, things that you are involved in. So why don’t you just talk about that a little bit before we get started.
Crystal: Absolutely. [00:01:00] So I’ve been in PR I think a little bit over 15 years now. Came from agent, the agency world and started my own company, crystal Rashard and Co back.
it’ll be actually nine years in February since I started that company. And I help small businesses, entrepreneurs, a lot of women entrepreneurs and not-for-profits, make waves in the media through media coverage. I am also the founder of what I call East Coast Mermaid. So it’s a lifestyle and travel brand.
I’m based. In New Brunswick, Canada, so here in the Maritimes and on the ocean. So sharing and telling stories about life by the sea has always been something that’s really interested me. So that’s how that brand came to be. And it’s really cool because as a publicist and as a lifestyle and travel brand, there’s a lot of opportunities where I get to offer clients a little bit of pr, a little bit of.
Content creation. And it’s crazy how those two worlds collide. but yeah, that’s me and a clamshell. I say, spend a [00:02:00] lot of time hanging out with whales. So people are always like, are you a publicist? Are you a marine biologist? What exactly do you do? so I like to joke I’m the international mermaid of mystery because I’m, no one really knows where I live or where, what I’m doing on any given day, but it, works.
Michelle: it’s very fun to follow you on social because I know you’re always sharing, photos of Ray, where you, are, what you’re doing. I know there was, is it the lobster? Was it la, was it Larry the lobster, or what was the lobster?
Crystal: Lucy.
Michelle: Lucy. Oh, let’s see. The
Crystal: lobster.
Michelle: I saw that and then I saw the whale post.
What’s the whales name?
Crystal: The Wales Old Tom. So I was just interviewed by CBC, which is, Canada’s biggest media outlet. they reached out to me last week to do an interview about old Tom, who’s a bit unique. He’s a lone orca whale, who comes up to the Bay of Fund day every summer. He hangs out between Bay of Fund day, so Southern Canada and Cape Cod are his.
Is his area. he travels with 200 white [00:03:00] sided dolphins and he’s a bit of an anomaly because he travels with dolphins and not another pod of orca whales. So when CBC reached out and wanted to do this interview because they had seen one of my videos that went viral, when I met old Tom last summer, I just thought, oh my gosh, this is my chance to be a publicist.
For a whale. How cool is that? So I’m now officially declaring myself old Tom’s official publicist.
Michelle: Anyway, I think it’s all, it’s very fun because I love all those things that you’re involved in, and it’s a, it’s like a different, a little taste of a different. World and I really enjoy that.
oh, I
Crystal: love to hear that.
Michelle: Yeah, I’m, I think it looks like you’re, really living your life and I love that. So
Crystal: I, look, I set out to create my own dream job and, that’s exactly what I’ve done.
Michelle: yeah, so I think I, I love that, that you’re doing that [00:04:00] and again, very fun to follow.
So I put a couple of links in, the chat and if, people wanna check out Crystal Cider, follow Crystal on LinkedIn, I’m sure she would be happy. I’d love that, to have you do that. So we are, I’m gonna set the stage a little bit. We are, today we are talking about expectations around PR because we know.
If you’re on the client side, you have expectations. And of course, if you’re a PR practitioner, consultant, provider, agency, whatever you wanna call it, It’s, it’s difficult sometimes to manage the expectations because sometimes clients have realistic expectations and sometimes they’re less and I think sometimes they may not, maybe we don’t do a good job of explaining like what all goes on behind the scenes and, what’s really, realistic to expect if you bring on, a PR provider.
So Crystal and I are gonna talk about this and, [00:05:00] we will, Be happy if you have questions. if you’re watching listening and you have questions, be ha please share those, we’d be happy to entertain those as well. I want to, as we set the stage, crystal, what do you have to add to that?
Is there anything you would add as we get started here?
Crystal: Honestly, I think it’s just, yeah, it’s. We try. I think we try, we make our best effort to explain to clients and, people that we’re working with about what goes on behind the scenes. But I still think there’s a lot of mystery to what exactly it is we do.
And I sometimes think. A really great pitch. I’ve written really great pitches that landed great coverage, and it took me an hour to write that pitch by the time I wrote it, researched, watched a couple videos, or read other articles that reporter has done to make sure that pitch was awesome.
And I, I do think there’s this misconception out there that publicists just. have this little black book that we can call in favors and make quick phone calls. First of [00:06:00] all, I don’t know a single journalist that wants me to call them anymore. They want an email and that takes time to write. So there’s so much stuff that goes on behind the scenes and it takes time.
And yeah, I was really passionate about the idea, about talking about expectations because I think it’s one of the biggest mysteries of pr.
Michelle: Yeah. so hold on a second. Oh, I wanna show the question. and actually it broke it into two questions. So two parts. so first we’re gonna talk about the type of media coverage that clients might expect, because sometimes they have, they’ve, maybe they’ve never done any PR before and they come in thinking, oh, we’re gonna immediately, this.
This publicist, this PR practitioner’s gonna get us in the Wall Street Journal in TechCrunch, or, on the Today Show or whatever it is, that they, that they are wanting to, where they’re wanting to be featured. But it doesn’t always, in fact, doesn’t often work like that. So let’s [00:07:00] talk a little bit about that.
Crystal: When I saw the word tech crunch on the screen, I immediately. So I come from a, now I do more lifestyle food, tourism, pr, but when I was starting out I was in startup pr and every startup that you would get on a sales call with TechCrunch, what’s it gonna take to get tech? they didn’t, it didn’t care about anything else, it was just TechCrunch.
so I have such great experiences and such awful experiences in that, journey to landing TechCrunch. But it’s funny ’cause that was always the one. Can you get us on TechCrunch? That used to come up in sales calls and discovery calls and, yeah, and it’s not, everyone that has the story or the product to get into TechCrunch.
Michelle: And I, think also if, you, a lot of companies, may have dabbled in PR in the past or maybe they’ve never done any PR at all. They’ve never engaged, in any, media outreach on their own. They’ve [00:08:00] never worked with anyone to do that on their behalf. And This is what always interested me and this, it happened more when I was on the west coast working with startups like in Silicon Valley, where I would go into the meeting and no one had ever heard of them.
And they would immediately think, oh, we’re gonna be, in the Wall Street Journal and TechCrunch tomorrow. And it was like, we could put those on the media list, but it’s just not. Probably gonna happen right away. So I, setting those expectations, especially when I was younger and newer to consulting, I think I struggled with that sometimes because, you don’t, it’s like you, I wouldn’t call it pushing back, but just again, it is, talking about it and being comfortable setting the expectation, which is really just being upfront with ’em and, letting them know that if this is what you expect.
It’s probably not gonna happen tomorrow. It might happen in three months, six months, a year, or we just don’t know. So there’s no [00:09:00] guarantee with earned media, so we just dunno.
Crystal: I’ve also, on the TechCrunch front, I’ve set the expectation that if that is the be all end all for you, then we’re going to offer them an exclusive.
And that means you’re going to put all of your eggs in one basket. We can’t send it out to other outlets, especially with funding announcements. And sometimes they’re okay with that. And sometimes it’s no, I want everyone to know about it. And it’s okay, maybe that would’ve been the one thing.
And in the past that has been the one thing that did help me get TechCrunch was offering an exclusive. But you really have to drive it home that if we give them the exclusive, we can’t turn around and go send that to other. tech outlets and things like that, It’s, yeah, it’s very much, I just like to also focus on all of the other great opportunities that are out there beyond just TechCrunch, because I’ve seen clients get TechCrunch think it was going to solve all of their problems that it was going to be Right.
especially you see that a lot with startups. there’s that pressure of you, you’re trying to get the, you’re trying to close the funding [00:10:00] round, you’re trying to hit the numbers you need, and you sometimes think if you just get on TechCrunch. Anyone that’s been on TechCrunch, those articles are buried within 24 hours.
You have your five minutes of fame. And then next thing it’s onto something new. And one of the things I love, you’re always talking about trade publications and how those can be gold for some companies. It’s having those conversations and setting those expectations that, okay, we could get you that.
Vanity win of saying I was in TechCrunch. But you know what? If you’re actually looking for new clients and new customers, being in trade publications where your audience is actually hanging out might make more sense.
Michelle: Yeah, I think sometimes, again, it’s e expectation setting. It’s also educating the client in that maybe they don’t know where their audience is spending time, but it’s probably more likely to be a trade publication perhaps than it would be TechCrunch or.
a top tier publication because that’s where, if they’re making buying decisions, that’s probably where they’re gonna [00:11:00] go and look for the information. and also reporters from those, from other publications that comes up when they’re searching, researching a topic or a story to cover.
So that’s what I also try to explain is that, while we are. We will pitch those as well. We’ll pitch the Wall Street Journal. We’ll pitch TechCrunch whatever the publication that they are, after, you know that they’re excited about, we’ll, pitch those, but in the meantime, let’s also be pitching, trade pubs because that can maybe get you, more than you even, expected or thought so.
Crystal: Absolutely.
Michelle: Yeah. This is my friend Lou, who is, who, I think has been on both sides of the, coin. He’s actually, he was actually my mentor when I was working and living at Silicon Valley. Oh my gosh. And I just, I, he taught me so much and was such a, so supportive, always. thanks Lou.
but yeah, CEOs expect instantaneous results [00:12:00] and, again, when you are doing earned media, not paid media. I Sometimes you just have to tell them that if that’s what you expect, then this, this is probably not going to be the only thing you should be doing, or, yeah, it’s not gonna work that way.
Crystal: This actually just made me think of something that wasn’t in our notes, but I think is important to talk about is the expectation around once you get in an outlet, how soon after you can be in that outlet again. ’cause I’ve seen that happen this past year. Where I’ve gotten clients into quite large publications and three months later it’s okay, so when can we get in that publication again?
if you don’t. Again, I keep going back to, unless you’re Apple, but I’ve had conversations with, TV networks that have said they typically wait six to eight months before they will bring the same company back onto the show to do another segment. And there has to be something news worth in a new hook to it.
[00:13:00] So once you’re in an outlet, if you’re in Wall Street Journal. Unless you’re getting in as a contributor and doing regular contributed articles, wall Street Journal’s not gonna write about you every three months kind of thing. So that’s another expectation that I think some CEOs and companies may not understand is that once you’re in an outlet, that’s likely going to be the only time for a little while.
So you wanna make sure if you have a couple different stories you’re thinking of that you go forward with the best one that’s really going to position you. In a way that you’re happy with. Because you can’t come back a month later and say, okay, so let’s do another story about us, because they’re gonna say, no, it’s too soon.
Michelle: No, and that’s the problem too, that I have found sometimes working with, clients locally, especially when, now that I’m back in the Midwest, I feel like, oh, we don’t really care about, coverage beyond our local media. And I’m like, That’s gonna be a very short term project then, because there’s only gonna [00:14:00] be a handful of media outlets and if they do a story now, they’re not gonna be doing another story unless you have some major, giant, news.
I don’t know, you were acquired for a billion dollars or something like, it’s not probably gonna happen again for another year or so. So I think that’s a very good point. Yeah. But they don’t, always see, they don’t think about it. That’s not what they’re immersed in. So that’s our job to explain it.
Exactly. That’s expectations. This is another thing that Lou said that I thought was really interesting is that, If you bring, you can bring in a, journalist to help explain it to clients because sometimes they, again, they don’t get it and maybe they don’t, believe the pr professional that they’re working with or they don’t take your word for it or something.
You could always, there’s probably, A journalist you could bring in, on a paid basis, of course, to help educate the client, and explain how it works.
Crystal: This is so perfect. I’m actually working [00:15:00] on a story with a client right now where, the client is bringing in an organization that they worked with and the journalist actually put together an amazing blurb for me to send to that, to my client, to then share with the organization of how everything was going to go because they wanted a little bit of a heads up of what’s this interview going to entail?
Where is it going to end up? And the reporter did such a beautiful job of clearly outlining the process that she wanted to take and what she was going to ask, and I just thought, oh my gosh. I wish it was always this easy because yeah, there’s. we do this every day for a living. CBC calls me and wants to interview me about a whale.
I know exactly. I’m on the call. I’m like, are we, is this gonna be for video? Are you doing audio only? Do you want headphones? No headphones. I’m answering the questions by repeating the questions to get the good sound bites. I know what I’m doing, but. For everyone else. Sometimes it’s really intimidating and the bigger the outlet, sometimes the more intimidating it can be of, oh my gosh, what if I say the wrong thing?
Is there a chance to retract a [00:16:00] statement? So there’s so much stuff that I think if If they won’t listen to the publicist, if the journalist can then share a bit of, just a little bit of handholding of here’s how this is going to go and, we’ve got you, that, that can help big time.
Michelle: Yeah, I like that idea a lot. and I think sometimes too, I’ve also had journalists tell me this, again, I’m not working with startups as much as I used to because I just, it’s just, it’s, it can be, oh, nor
Crystal: am I, yeah, it’s hard.
Michelle: But often the journalists would tell me that sometimes. Startup founders, if, especially if they were younger or less experienced, didn’t, with the media, didn’t understand that anything they said was on the record.
The mic is always on the, they’re always, unless you make that very clear, that, your comments are off the record or they agree to it ahead of time or on background or whatever the term you wanna use is, you are always, if you’re talking to a journalist, anything [00:17:00] you say during that interview could be, could show up in, in the.
Story. So just an interesting, if you try to do it on your own, which I know, I encourage people to do their own PR if they, are able and have the time and can be consistent about it. But there are certain things that, you might not understand or think about, until you get some experience during it.
Crystal: and it’s another thing we hadn’t really talked about but is a good expectation setting is I’ve had friends that are founders who did their own media interviews and reached out to me and said, crystal, I did this interview. I thought it went really great. They published it, they misquoted me that they took a completely different approach than I thought the interview was going to be.
Is there anything I can do? And it’s so hard in that situation to go back and say, I said, I always tell ’em if they quoted you. Wrong. And it’s, very [00:18:00] non-factual. Yes. You can go back and say, that’s, I didn’t say that’s incorrect. But if they decided to take and the story and go in a different direction and position it differently than you might have pitched it.
There’s not a whole lot you can do. And it’s, you don’t wanna say, you should have called me or you should have hired me. But it’s one of those moments of, this is a teachable moment of. This is why sometimes even if it’s just jumping on a consultant, a paid consulting call with a publicist to, to pitch the idea and say, do you foresee any way this could go bad?
Sometimes we have the experience to say, you know what? I think they’re going to, especially with those outlets that are looking for negative hooks, so you’re pitching them a positive story, but they take the one tiny thing that can turn that story around and make it negative. and negative news sells.
People are drawn to it these days, It’s just little stuff like that I always say, if you’re going to do it alone, just make sure when you go into pitching that story you do the interview. You think of all of the different ways it [00:19:00] could go that you might not have planned for
Michelle: Right.
And again, until you live that life, it’s really hard to anticipate that. And it’s so much to your point, it’s so much easier to not say it or. it not, so for it not to show up then to try to reel it, but that’s just the other thing is even if the story’s out there and even if they make a correction, how many people are really gonna go back or be aware, that’s the problem. And now we’ve got a major, misinformation, situation going on. we know that once something’s out there. it’s out there and, the correction may not really register with people. especially
Crystal: anything in print too.
That’s the other thing. If it ends up in a printed newspaper, I can have them change the online article, but there’s not anything I can do about the print edition that’s out in the world. It’s already
Michelle: out there.
[00:20:00] yeah. No, it’s, yeah, that’s the thing. not to alarm anyone, but just be cautious I guess.
Just be thoughtful, be cautious, think through what you’re gonna say ahead of time and, yeah. And if you’re not comfortable answering a question, I think there are ways, to, get around that too. Maybe we need to do, PR explored about media training and do’s and donts.
That would be a good one.
Crystal: I was gonna add too, for anyone that’s listening to this, that’s now they’re worried and thinking, oh, maybe I shouldn’t send that pitch or do my own pr. I think also helping look at that reporter and what, how they’ve covered stories in the past would help, because when I’m thinking about this particular friend that this happened to, it wasn’t an outlet that’s known for taking, like I, I have clients that won’t speak to that outlet because they said, it doesn’t matter how positive I am.
It’s going to get spun in a way that I’m not comfortable with likely. And I just don’t wanna take that chance. So I think sometimes if you can get a sense for how that reporter, what their interview style is [00:21:00] and how they’ve written about other companies, that can sometimes maybe give you a little bit of an inclination to how your article might go to.
So it just goes back to doing research, to making sure that you’re pitching the right person and that they’re going to, pay attention and take care in telling your story.
Michelle: Yes. Very important. And all things that PR pros are, skilled at, at doing so. I wanna just talk about, Jen McGinley’s comment here.
it just, you don’t want a client to be disappointed, right? Because obviously, it’s just not a fun situation conversation to be in, after the fact with the client. But you also want the client to be happy with your work and, you want them to be happy with the results of your work.
So nobody, I don’t think anybody ever goes into a situation with a client, Wanting them to come out disappointed because, we want them to be happy and say nice things and come back [00:22:00] for more, work. but sometimes we just, I think by, I know so many people, and again, I used to be in this situation too, where I was just reluctant, especially if you’re talking, maybe it’s one thing if you’re talking to your marketing contact, but if you’re talking to the C-suite or the CEO of the company or the founder, sometimes I think we have that little bit of reluctance to really have that.
Honest conversation, even though it’s the right thing to do, we’re really doing them a favor and helping them understand. But I do think it can be a little intimidating,
Crystal: It can, and you don’t wanna discourage them from the get go either. So I, always include when I send over that plan, a PR approach plan, I will include a couple lines that say what to expect. And one of the things I will say is, if we’re going after local media, I know I can turn that around. Relatively quickly, especially if they have something newsworthy or if they’re having an event and we can get folks out to the event.
But I [00:23:00] always say, if we’re going after national or global media. You are looking at a longer turnaround time, and I basically will just say over the last 10 years of doing this, here’s some of the average response times and I’ll say, one client had their eyes set on this one outlet and it took six months.
So I try to balance it with, there’s some things that we can probably get quicker. But then some of the bigger wins that you’re after, they are going to take a little bit more time. And so I find if you it’s like a good news, bad news situation. Good news is there are some things we can do quickly, but then some other things Will take time and patience. But I promise you they will be worth it when they do happen.
Michelle: Yeah. that’s the thing I have found too, that if a client, If a prospective client doesn’t want to hear that or is put off by that conversation, it’s probably really not gonna be somebody that. It’s gonna be good to work with because they’re not gonna understand that this takes time.
They’re just gonna go [00:24:00] and look for somebody who’s gonna say, yes, we can do this for you overnight. And then they’re gonna find out that it’s not Yeah. gonna happen that way. being honest is really, you really want somebody, to, just tell you the truth and be upfront with you about.
what, what could happen because again, we never know what’s gonna hit, but sometimes it can take a while and we’re gonna talk about that too. alright, so let’s move on to this next question. I. So many people don’t understand how long it can take to get media coverage. the, and the back and forth that happens, the rejection before getting to the Yes.
Let’s talk a little bit about that. now,
Crystal: yeah, so I, I think the biggest misconception, or not misconception, I think the biggest just [00:25:00] thing that people. People don’t realize is that for most outlets, every journalist has assignments, so they have the articles that they’ve been asked to write by their editor, especially if they’re a staff writer.
So if you’re bringing them an idea. They then have to have capacity to want to pursue that idea in addition to what they’ve already been assigned. They also need to then go get buy-in from their editor to say, actually, yeah, I do love that story. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. So we’ll assign you that in addition to the other things you’ve been assigned.
Like it’s not just you tell, you send a writer. A story idea. They think it’s great and they write it tomorrow and it’s published next week. There’s a lot of back and forth. I’ve had several writers this summer that have told me I’ve already been assigned my articles for this month. Try me again at the start of next month and maybe we can make it happen.
And then you follow up again and they say, still swamped with this one article required more research than I thought it was going to try me again in a couple [00:26:00] weeks. So one. Media piece can take, a couple months of that back and forth. And then once they say, okay, I’m ready to take this on, I’m gonna send it to my editor, then you’re holding, I would hope, okay, the editor’s gonna say yes and they’re going to green light this.
And it’s not that there’s gonna something else that needs to be done. And I think that, I feel like there’s a lot of people that don’t realize that’s a huge part of PR is the waiting game. And the luck of finding a journalist that is able to. Take on that story.
Michelle: and that’s, again, it’s hard to, explain if, if the client doesn’t have any background in PR or they don’t, they just, of course, this is what I found too.
I, don’t, wanna keep talking about startups, but often, a startup founder is very close to their, company. It’s like their baby. And so who wouldn’t be interested in this? this is really compelling and, [00:27:00] it’s, but. You have to think about it through the eyes of the reporter and, their editor really, or their, producer or whatever medium you’re pitching.
But, you have to think about what is, gonna be of interest to that. Journalist audience and is it, another thing I see people do is that, and journalists talk about this, is that sometimes they’ll have done a story and then they’ll get a pitch or a lot of pitches about that particular topic that they’ve already covered.
They’re not gonna cover that topic again, probably for a while. most likely. So there are just some things that, I think that. clients may just think, this is just how it is. And, but no, it really isn’t like that. again, it’s good to have these conversations.
Crystal: Something you just reminded me of though, on the flip side.
So there’s the, every founder has their product, their company, that’s their baby, [00:28:00] and no one thinks their baby’s ugly. So for them it’s no, my baby is beautiful and everyone should wanna write about it. But there’s also the flip side. I’ve seen. Some founders who are very humble and don’t wanna come off as bragging, so therefore they raise a bunch of money.
Oh, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna talk about all the money we raised. you know what though, for an outlet like TechCrunch or Wall Street Journal, or in Canada, the Financial Times, or sorry, the financial post. They might actually care about, if you can go and say, Hey, this company is doing so well.
We actually just raised a bunch of money, or we’ve signed X amount of clients and actually shared data. There are some founders who might think that’s bragging, but to some media outlets, that’s the juicy financial nuggets that they want to be able to share that story because it shows traction and validation.
And so I’ve seen both sides where it’s oh, I don’t wanna brag. But that’s kind of part of PR is bragging a little bit to share about the growth of your company. So it’s interesting [00:29:00] how it can go, both ways to, my baby’s not ugly, everyone should wanna write about it too. Oh, we wanna do it in a way that doesn’t really draw attention to how awesome we are.
So I’ve seen both.
Michelle: that’s true because I think when I was on the West Coast, people were not shy at all about tooting their horns and then back in the Midwest we do, I do see that sometimes in, it’s, it is interesting to me, just even regionally here in the US how it’s different. and, also it depends, like me men versus women or, it’s just, it’s something again, if you’re, if you want.
To hype yourself, which is, PR is, that’s, one of the things that we do. you need to be willing and ready to be part of that process, and you shouldn’t really be shy about what you’re doing. I think there are ways to go about it where it’s maybe less of a, put off. But honestly I just, I think we’re in our own head with [00:30:00] that too much because, you have to repeat the same message so many times for people to really.
Grasp or pay attention. And so again, if you feel like you’ve said it too many times, you need to be saying it like, 50 more times before it’s really gonna sink in. So I don’t think people should get in their head too much about that.
Crystal: Oh, for sure.
Michelle: So this next question, it’s one of my favorites in the PR world, because I have been talking about this.
Oh, forever it seems. Is the press release dead? Some people just want it to die. I think that’s really what it is.
Crystal: It so look, I’m working on a press release this week. They’re not dead. but I do think there’s a time and place for them. I pitched both global media [00:31:00] outlets and I pitched the local town newspaper. The small town newspapers and even, the TV networks.
Sometimes the press release is just exactly what they need to get the background to write the story. Yes. But if you attach a one pager or just put some, I know most journalists don’t want an attachment, so sometimes I’ll just put. I’ve told clients in the past, unless this is something that you formally want to add to your website or to distribute on the Newswire and pay big bucks for it to go out and probably not get picked up, you’ll get, the SEO juice and all that comes from it, unless that’s your end goal.
Honestly, just writing a really detailed pitch that has bullet points, that gets the main points across. Is all you need. But there are some cases, especially I, again, on a local front, and as we were chatting about this before the call, I live in a bilingual area in Canada, so every press release I do has to be in [00:32:00] English, and it has to be in French.
Because we have both French and English media here. It has to go to all of them. it’s a whole thing. But for small businesses in smaller areas, it’s, it is still alive and well.
Michelle: Oh no, I think they’re very much alive and well. And I will, argue this probably, throughout my career because I just, I feel like it just never goes away.
This question. And I think especially now with AI-driven search, whatever you wanna call it, GEO, whatever, there, there are, now there are people who are suggesting that we write press releases for the search engines. And that is a whole nother topic. but I think. The process of writing one gets everybody on the same page.
It helps, get you aligned and clear about your messaging. You can post it on your website. You can, share it on social. There are a lot of things you can do with it. You don’t necessarily have to put it on the wire, but I also have journalists [00:33:00] who will ask me. Can you, if I didn’t send the press release, they’d say, can you send me the press?
Because they, because it’s got the who, what, when, where, why, how it’s got all the details they need. And sometimes if we just package that up with some, images or, and a logo or some video or whatever we have and send it over, they just run it like they don’t even need to come back and forth with you to ask questions.
So if
Crystal: I had a dollar for every time that I had a press release for say an event, it often happens with an event. And maybe that event’s after hours, it’s in the evening, it’s it’s not an ideal time for the journalist or they’re at another event or press conference. I’ve had journalists that have said, if you can send me over press release, if there’s quotes in the press release, and to your point, if you have some photos.
And they will run a story. And they won’t, sometimes they’ll rework it a little bit. Like they won’t necessarily directly publish the press release. But they will use that and the quotes in it to write the story and it’s great. Because, sometimes the client might say, oh, they didn’t call me to interview you.
Yeah. But [00:34:00] they didn’t have time. So if this is still better than nothing. It got their story, it got your news out there. otherwise, had we not had a press release, they wouldn’t have had time to do the interview and this might not have happened. So it’s it’s definitely saved my butt many times in the past.
Michelle: Yeah, I just, I find that clients, still want them. Journalists still want them. We’re gonna be writing them. I think forever. But, I know again, there’s just certain, even people in PR I find just don’t, they don’t wanna do it. They don’t wanna write ’em. So then they’re like, they’re dead. I’m like,
Crystal: I will say.
So I don’t know if everyone has had this experience, but I have. so I do remember back in the days when we used to attach them as a PDF, that was like common. You would add it as a PDF. Now I just paste mine in the email body and I actually. There was somebody I was working with last year and they wanted it to be sent as a PDF and they wanted to be CC’d, and I sent it [00:35:00] to the PDF and the journalist wrote me back and said, I almost didn’t respond to this because you attached the press release as a PDF, but since the story’s good, I’m going to let that slide.
But never ever send me a press release as a PDF ever again. So I always caution people now, I’m like, put it in the email. It’s not gonna look as sexy, but
Michelle: I just cut and paste it, usually right in the body of the email. Generally. That’s what I would do with a, a, yeah, pitch a little, pulling out the highlights, a little short little preface, and then just send it over.
And, Sometimes I sometimes though I, because I know a lot of the journalists that I work with, for collides, I will attach images and usually they’re okay if with that it saves them time. But then again, if you don’t wanna attach the images, because to your point, some journalists don’t like attachments.
You can always do, you can put ’em in a Google Drive or Dropbox or something and link, so they can pull those down. there are different ways to handle it, but I think it’s [00:36:00] just better. To include everything that you think they might need or ask you for in the first, email, the first outreach, and then, let them come back with questions if they have them.
But I’ve just had a lot of success making sure I package everything up and sending it off, at least with traded pubs. So they seem to really like that. we did have a question, and this is a kind of a big question, but we can talk about it for a couple minutes. so have shrinking newsrooms and editorial staffs.
how do those, how have those impacted your media relations strategies?
Crystal: I can certainly speak, from a Canadian media perspective. Bring a little kuck, POV, in Canada we’ve lost a lot of our journalists. I was on LinkedIn earlier today and saw that on the West coast, a bunch of video journalists.
Were laid [00:37:00] off earlier this week, so it has certainly added to the length of time it takes to get coverage because I can think of some of our top media publications. There’s only a handful of writers that are writing for them right now, and they’re covering all of Canada. we, me, I mentioned this earlier, one of our TV networks, we have one video journalist in my city right now who’s covering not only.
Our city are part of the province, but also covering Prince Edward Island land of Anna Green Gables. for anyone that’s watching, that’s I think I’ve heard of Prince Edward Island before. he is also covering all of them. So if there’s a breaking news story, he has to travel to Prince Edward Island.
When you have one video journalist for a TV network for that whole area, it really impacts your ability to get coverage because you’re basically going up against all of the other breaking news that’s happening. And all it would take is, bad car accident, wildfire, [00:38:00] anything like that, to derail your, plans of getting coverage.
So I’m definitely noticing it in Canada that it’s, a real thing and it’s definitely increasing the time it takes to get coverage at some outlet.
Michelle: Yeah, I would say, I’m gonna go back to, the point I was just talking about is if you, with the shrinking staffs, they’re looking for content, especially I think with trade journals.
and again, if you can make it easy for them by packaging everything up, sending it over. I do this with contributed articles and thought leadership pieces and things too. Sometimes they’ll just run it, like they don’t even come back and say, thank you. We love this. We’ll run it on this day.
No, it’ll just show up. And so I’m like, I know they’re looking for things. And so in that way, I think, if the PR. provider practitioner is, able to get them what they need. that can actually be an opportunity for clients to, fill those [00:39:00] gaps. And I, not to say that I don’t feel for all of the journalists who are being laid off, that’s, I’m not, I don’t mean that at all, but I’m just saying if you look at it like, okay, so how can we.
get them what they need to help fill these gaps that they may be having now that they’re smaller staffs and, lower budgets and things like, they’re just trying to do, More with less. And so I feel like that is an opportunity, for us to help get our clients, help, help we help, them, help us or,
Crystal: yeah,
Michelle: something like that.
Crystal: No, but that’s a great point. one thing that’s been really successful with clients lately is writing article, thought leadership articles and contributing them and not asking to get paid for those articles.
Huge, success with a few clients. Right now. They, it’s to your point, I will email the editor and say, we have another idea.
Awesome. Send it over. Published within 24 hours. Yep. that’s a big one. So if you are willing to take [00:40:00] the time to write an article, you’re not expecting to get paid for how many words or in it? But you’re fine with just getting a byline and a link back to your website, which is still awesome for the record.
Yeah. there’s a huge opportunity there. Another thing I’ve noticed, especially with lifestyle media, the rise of affiliate links. So a lot of media outlets now are, if you look at any sort of round of article about best skincare products or best fall scarves or fall clothing, or whatever it might be this time of year, best pumpkin sky latte products.
They’re all affiliate links, and so I do find with a lot of lifestyle publications, if you can give a journalist who is making money off of those affiliate links or the outlet’s making money off those affiliate links that will help seal the deal to say. this is an affiliate friendly product.
Excellent. We’re going to include in a roundup or give them some sort of, if you have your own affiliate program where if they write about your product and it gets clicks and people buy the product, they get a little cash back, things like that certainly [00:41:00] help as well. in the lifestyle front, especially.
Michelle: Yeah, I was gonna say, I think it, it’s probably, I focus more on B2B. I think maybe you focus more on B2C, is that right?
Crystal: a little B2B, a little b2c. I’m a mixed bag these days.
Michelle: but I do, but I think B2C is, has gotten tougher or is getting tougher. Yeah, I feel like those outlets are maybe the ones that are struggling, maybe more than, I don’t know.
That may just be my perception.
Crystal: B2C I find. There’s very few staff writers anymore. It’s all contributors. And on one hand, if a contributor’s writing to 10 for 10 different publications and you pitch them a story, there’s more options for them to pitch it to. So you can look at it that way as it’s not just one publication, one editor, and that editor says, no, that’s it.
But at the same time, They’re trying to get published in as many publications as possible because they wanna get paid as they should, and therefore you really have to make sure that what you’re giving them is worth their while. And it’s going to get [00:42:00] the clicks too, because at the end of the day, a lot of contributors get paid based on how many views their article gets.
So you really need to be mindful that it’s not just asking them to do you a favor and cover your, client or your product. It’s, you wanna make sure you’re giving them something that’s going to get. Eyeballs. And I hate to say click baby, but it has to be because that’s how they’re going to get paid.
So you really have to be mindful of that.
Michelle: Yeah, no, I would agree.
Let’s talk, we co we covered this a little bit. let’s talk a little bit more about, let’s see. if you don’t have the budget to hire a pro, but you wanna do your own PR. what are the expectations? What should your expectations be around that? Is it possible what, let’s talk a little bit more about that.
Crystal: Yeah, I think it’s absolutely possible, and I’m like you, I try to encourage people all the time that if it’s not in your budget to work with a publicist. [00:43:00] adding little small habits to your day, whether that’s following some journalists on social media, keeping an eye on what they’re, writing about subscribing to some sub, I, I subscribe to a lot of Substack, that journalists have, where they put out queries that they’re looking for, sources for stories, things like that.
But even on a very micro level in your own city, get to know the local journalists, buy a subscription to the local. Newspaper or Chamber of Commerce, whatever it might be, whatever the local magazine is talking about. Businesses, buy a membership to it. look at what’s being written.
Reach out to journalists. Introduce yourself. it is possible. I think the biggest, Obstacle is just people don’t carve out the time to do their own pr. I could say the same for myself. I work in pr. Do I ever pitch myself? Never. it, anytime I’ve got media coverage, it’s happened organically.
’cause I was posting about something and they reached out to me. So we’re, I, [00:44:00] we’re our own worst enemy when it comes to that. But I think it’s true that a lot of business owners might think, oh yeah, I can do this. We don’t need to pay someone. The reason they end up paying someone in the end is often because it’s just finding that discipline to actually do it yourself.
But if you have the, the will and the way you can absolutely. Do your own pr.
Michelle: Yeah. I think a lot of times, again, I feel like it’s consistency because it’s not like what I have found. Over the years is that I’ll talk to a prospective client and they’ll say, we signed out a press release.
nothing happened, so PR doesn’t work. no, that’s not necessarily true. It’s like it’s might not, I always say, if you’re gonna just do again, it’s like it’s not a one and done type of activity. You can’t just send that one announce. Been, if you’re gonna send out one press release, maybe think about a series of three pieces of news that you could share over the coming months that would help build the momentum and get you in front of those journalists that you wanna reach.[00:45:00]
the biggest thing is you don’t wanna just blast out. a pitch or a press release using a meeting database to 500 random journalists. Yeah. You wanna be more thoughtful about, who are we trying to reach and where’s our audience spending time? And then, come up with a list of just a few, publications or journalists that you think, might be interested if you’re doing it yourself and you just wanna start slow.
I think that’s. A really good way to get going and then think about, what stories they might be interested in. And you have to think beyond, again, a product or a solution. I think, journalists are really interested in here, in, in stories that are bigger than just, your latest product launch or whatever it is.
not that say that there aren’t publications that cover new products and things like that. You should still do that, when you have those. But also how often are you gonna have a new product? So you really need to be thinking, outside that box.
Crystal: Yeah. And consistency, I think is the biggest it’s the key to getting [00:46:00] coverage, but I think it’s where a lot of DIY PR people are going to.
Fall off because you have to keep doing it. So I always love to use the example. one of my clients in the past was a women’s health and burnout specialist. So there was a writer for the Globe and Male that I knew was perfect for her story. So I was pitching this writer about once a month, various topics about women’s health and burnout.
There was always the word burnout in the subject line. In the, yeah, whatever, what I was popping in the subject line. Burnout was always there. So I pitched her every month. Crickets. I wasn’t even getting a not interested, I was just getting crickets. There was nothing coming back. And about, I think it was eight months later, I was sitting down one evening to eat dinner, late dinner.
’cause I was working late. And I get this email from this journalist that I have been pitching for eight months and she was just assigned an article on women in burnout. Should aboard a plane in the morning. Any chance my client, if she’s on the West Coast, client was on the East Coast, any chance my client could jump on a call with her.
[00:47:00] So Ashley got the kids to bed and said, let’s do it. And she jumped on and did the interview and it turned out great. And then suddenly she’s featured in the Globe Mail, which was huge.
Michelle: Yeah,
Crystal: but that was literally eight months of crickets. Not even a try again. I’ll pass. Thanks for sending this crickets.
But she said. She remembered getting a pitch somewhere about burnout. She did a quick inbox search. Yeah. To see who had pitched her in the past about burnout and because I consistently showed up. Yeah. So exactly that. If you’re doing it on your own and you have an outlet that you are dead set on getting into.
Just keep following up. It’s okay to re-pitch again in a month if you don’t get a response or if they pass, just keep it fresh. Change the angle up, but keep at it. that’s what’s going to get those wins eventually.
Michelle: Yeah. Sometimes journalists will lack a pitch, but just not, have, there’s no time or space or whatever for it.
So they’ll put it, they’ll save it and come back to it later. So I think that’s a really important [00:48:00] point too, because we do now, what we don’t wanna encourage anyone to do is. Is pastor a journalist to death over, pitch them eight times in 24 hours or And I’ve, I’m in a media database because I’ve done some, freelance writing and reporting, and so sometimes I get pitched, I’m like, oh, yikes.
No, that’s not what we mean at all. Crystal said, refresh it and, yeah, revisit it, but don’t like, just keep, sending the same, that’s probably gonna turn off the journalists, more than anything else.
Crystal: another thing too that I, always encourage people if you’re, if you’re, I think sometimes too, if you’re doing it yourself, you might not have.
The insight to create a pitch. Like you’re not like, I don’t know how to write a pitch. That’s not what I do, but I know how to talk about The things I’m passionate about in my business. So sometimes it’s not even necessarily sending them a pitch, it’s introducing yourself [00:49:00] and saying, here are some of the timely topics I can speak to.
great example, one of my clients. Is a reconciliation strategist. she’s an incredible indigenous entrepreneur and she works with large corporations on the reconciliation strategy. In Canada. Later this month we have the National Day of Truth and Reconciliation. that is all about reconciliation, so I’m reaching out to media. Let’s, right now, saying if you have any. Segments that you’re doing, articles that you’re writing about Truth and Reconciliation Day, here’s this amazing expert source. And I’ve had outlets that have written back and said, yes, we would like to, chat with her about this. Or actually, I’m working on another story related to indigenous affairs.
I think she would be an excellent source for that. So sometimes just helping them, it’s like a, you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours and say, look, there’s a timely topic right now that you’ve been writing about regularly. I have. Unique insights and experience that I could add to that conversation.
If you’re ever looking [00:50:00] for an expert source. I would be available to jump on a call at your convenience and talk to you. So I find that can work really well too if you don’t necessarily have the creative skills to come up with a clever pitch and talking points and things like that.
Michelle: I think you just made an important point in that, you need the client, the expectations around the opportunities too. So if the PR pro. Or you’re doing your own PR and you find, somebody’s open to talking to you, you need to jump on that. And you’ve given a couple of examples of that.
Like it’s really important to have that approach and that attitude about it. because again, I hear stories about, I don’t necessarily work with clients like this, but I have heard stories about clients who, will be given an opportunity that they, you know. Wanted. And then they are like, I don’t really have time to do that today, or I don’t have time to do that for two weeks.
Or the journalist is just gonna move on. at that point you, you probably lost the opportunity. So your expectation should be, [00:51:00] if you are getting opportunities, you need to be engaging. with, at the journalists, beck and call basically. So
Crystal: I always say if a journalist, if you pitch a journalist on Tuesday and they say, I’d love to chat this week.
I can chat as early as tomorrow or anytime this week you give them and take your earliest availability and if there is something that you can. if there’s a call that you’re supposed to just have with your best friend that you know you can reschedule or buy, make it work. Because I have, I’ve seen that before where someone picks the last possible date to talk to the journalist, and sometimes it might be because you’re nervous and you’re trying to put it off, which is understandable.
But in that time, they have then gone and found another source without you knowing. Jumped on a call with that person and then suddenly they don’t need your quote anymore. And so I’m always very, jump at the first opportunity you can to, take that interview and get on that call.
Michelle: Yeah, [00:52:00] no, absolutely.
’cause I think that, again, that’s another expectation setting conversation that we probably should have, if the client doesn’t understand, that, journalists work in a very, on a deadline driven, situation. Usually they might not understand how important it is.
But yeah, the other thing I always say is if the, spokesperson is gonna be out of town, they’re gonna be on vacation in Fiji for a month or whatever, that’s not the right time to pitch that story.
Crystal: I had that happen once where a founder asked me to pitch them, and then I got them a media interview and they said, oh, I didn’t tell you I’m going on vacation for three weeks and I’m going to be unreachable.
And I was like, is there someone else on your team that, no, you’re gonna, it’s gonna have to wait till I come back. And I’m like, but I, you brought me on to pitch. Like it just, it never came up. So now when I start with any client, I have that. Okay. Are there any blackout dates in the next couple months where you are not going to be available?
Yeah. [00:53:00] where perhaps we’ll shift focus to working behind the scenes, refreshing the media list, refreshing the media angles, whatever that might be doing the behind the scenes work. But yeah, it’s crazy to me how that’s happened to me countless times and I’m just. what do you mean here? And it’s not to say like you can go on vacation and good for you to turn your phone off, but when you’re working with a PR person that you’re paying to get you media coverage, that’s not the time to just announce that you’re leaving and you can’t do media interviews.
Michelle: no. And, clients out there, from the client side. you need to be keeping your PR pro in the loop about your availability. And, anytime that PR Pro might ask you a question like this, you might think it’s silly, but that means that we probably experienced a situation where, it’s happened and it can be really damaging.
again, and again, clients are thinking about themselves and that’s, fine. But at from. The PR pros perspective, if we burn that bridge or let that journalist down, [00:54:00] that impacts not only that client, but our relationship with the journalist as far as pitching other clients down the road, the future that just, it just, it’s just not a really good, it’s a bad situation.
Yeah.
Crystal: No, I’m really, it’s the same thing as I tell clients I pitch Monday through Thursday. I might send some follow ups on Friday, but if you send me something on a Friday afternoon at three o’clock and say, could you send this to the media? I’m not going to send it to the media because I don’t wanna get a pitch at three o’clock on a Friday afternoon when I’m just trying to finish stuff up for the weekend.
It will wait till Monday. but I have always, been very transparent with clients of when the pitching’s going down. And same thing with holidays. there’s certain, and you, and I’ve. You and I have backed and forth about this on social media in the past. if we’re coming up on a long weekend.
I’m gonna pull in the reins and not be sending out as many pitches. I’ll be doing stuff behind the scenes. I’ll be drafting pitches for the following week, but that’s not the time to be sending out fresh stuff, unless absolutely [00:55:00] necessary. and I try to convey that to clients and, but again, sometimes when you’re working.
Especially when you’re working with startups that work seven days a week and it’s like you’ve got the eyes on the prize. Sometimes it’s hard to think in a Monday to Friday context, but, it’s important. ’cause like I said, no one wants to be that person that pitches a journalist. On, Friday afternoon at four.
Michelle: Yeah, no, generally in the B2B world, we are planning out ahead of time and there aren’t too many situations, I would say, where we really have to reach out to media, at the, at a moment’s notice. But, I think that’s a really good point. ’cause I feel like now there’s breaking news. 24 7.
Doesn’t matter if it’s the weekend or Friday night or whatever, but that doesn’t mean that you wanna be that person to, to, do that because that, I don’t think, I still believe in, if you can pick and choose your times, I’d say, a Tuesday, Wednesday might be a better day to, make an announcement with a press release for example, or something like [00:56:00] that.
Again, but
Crystal: those are my golden days for press releases because Yeah, once you’re getting past Wednesday afternoon and, yeah, and I, it’s funny, I always, if I’m having a conversation with anyone and the term, do you have crisis PR experience? If the words crisis pr enter the chat. I’m out. I’m no, I don’t do crisis PR for a reason because I don’t wanna be having to email the press on a Saturday app.
Afternoon or anything like that. I like to say that the kind of PR I do is never life and death and, yeah, because, there are some, to your point, like B2B and even a lot of what I do, it’s, it does follow some structure, but once you’re getting into, anything that’s breaking news, political, anything like that, it’s, I have friends that work in that world and they’re, on with their phone on twenty four seven,
Michelle: That’s gotta be stressful. yeah, I agree. sometimes a [00:57:00] client will find themselves in some kind of a crisis. Yeah. And then of course, we’re there for them. However, that is very, in my experience, knock wood, few and far between. So it’s not like occasionally I do get calls from a company that’s in a crisis that I’m not currently working with.
And that’s just, yeah, that’s a, yeah, I think that’s very specialized.
Crystal: Oh, it is. There’s, and I’ll be the first to tell people I just, it’s not, what I have been doing for the last 15 years and it’s not something that I’m confident in, so I’m not the gal, but, yeah.
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. we’re nearing the end of the hour, if you can believe it.
That went pretty fast. Is there anything that you want to talk about or share that we haven’t covered as far as expectation setting? when it comes to pr?
Crystal: Oh my gosh. I think, just to wrap it up, I, I. If you’re taking the leap and [00:58:00] you’re investing in pr, trust the process, trust your publicist.
and I say that knowing that, there’s a lot of people out there, I’ve heard all the stories being burned by working with agencies and publicists and whatnot, but If you found someone that you’re confident in and that you’ve, you have a good rapport with trust, that they’re not, we’re not.
We’re not trying to upset you when you say, this is gonna take a little bit longer and we, it might take another week or two for an update. These things do take time. We were talking about this before we, we got on the call, I’ve had a couple irons on the fire for weeks now and, sent dozens upon dozens of pitches, and yesterday I left my desk and within five minutes I had two huge opportunities come in for two different clients today.
Another opportunity I’ve been pitching for six months is now, Producers are writing back and asking for things. So this stuff takes time and patience and I promise you it’s absolutely worth it. But yeah, just trust the process. [00:59:00]
Michelle: Yes. Wise words from a wise, woman. and someone I respect very much, and I always know I can come to you if I have an idea or something.
Oh my gosh, bounce around. I think a lot of times we’re on the same page and it’s just really, it’s always, I’m, always really grateful that you’re there. And, yeah, I think, I’m so glad we had the conversation that we had today. So thank you. Yes. the
Crystal: feeling is very mutual.
Thank you for inviting me to join you
Michelle: and I wanna thank everybody who tuned in, everybody who’s, listening, watching after, the fact as well. And I’ll be back soon with another episode. I’ll share details about that, very soon. So thank you so much.
Crystal: Thanks everyone.
