PR and social media benefit from leveraging each other – yet often, there’s a disconnect between the two. 😕
Silos may exist that prevent them from collaborating to maximize a brand’s communications. How can public relations and social media pros work together to get more out of each other’s efforts?
My guest, Karen Freberg, a professor of strategic communication at the University of Louisville and social media expert, joins me to discuss the best ways for these two to team up.
We also discuss the 2025 social media trends Karen is watching.
Show summary:
The episode of PR Explored features host Michelle Garrett, a public relations consultant, interviewing Karen Freeburg, a professor in strategic communication at the University of Louisville.
The conversation delves into the relationship between public relations and social media, highlighting challenges and strategies for better collaboration. Karen shares her extensive experience, discussing her roles as author, consultant, director of a student-led agency (The Bird’s Nest), and her opinions on current social media trends.
The discussion includes integrating PR and social media through the PESO model, the evolving state of platforms like LinkedIn, YouTube, TikTok, and more. Concepts of influencer versus creator, managing social media presence, and upholding mental health while maintaining a professional online presence are also discussed.
00:00 Welcome to PR Explored
00:22 Introducing Karen Freeburg
01:37 Karen’s Professional Journey
06:41 The Role of PR and Social Media
15:45 Breaking Down Silos in PR and Social Media
25:06 The State of Social Media Today
26:44 The Power of Social Media Connections
27:45 Influencers vs. Creators: What’s the Difference?
31:02 The Rise of Newsletters and Podcasting
33:12 Navigating Social Media Platforms
36:22 The Importance of Balance in Social Media
41:52 Adapting to Social Media Trends
52:09 Concluding Thoughts and Future Episodes
Show notes:
Follow Karen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karenfreberg/
Karen Freberg’s site: https://karenfreberg.com/
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Unlocking the Synergy Between PR and Social Media
Michelle: [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to PR Explored. I’m so happy to be back today and I want to welcome everyone to PR Explored. It’s a video podcast where we delve into trends and topics related to public relations. I’m your host, Michelle Garrett. I’m a public relations consultant and writer. And today I have a guest that I’m so excited to welcome, Karen Freeburg.
She’s a professor in strategic communication at the University of Louisville. And we have known each other for really years now, Karen, but we are talking for the first time. So this is really exciting and I’m so happy. You are my social media go to. So I’m just happy to have you here today.
Karen: I’m honored to be here, Michelle.
As you said, I was trying to think about how many years we’ve been connected, like it was on Twitter X and then LinkedIn, Instagram. And it’s been a minute, but it’s been a good minute. So I’m really [00:01:00] grateful to be part of this.
Michelle: Yeah, no, I’m so excited because I, like I said we talk, but not, we don’t talk on email and social media and things.
And of course, I really respect your opinion. And I. I’m really happy to have you here because there’s so much going on with social media and there’s always been challenges between syncing up PR and social. And so we’re going to get into all that.
Yeah.
Michelle: But first I would love to hear what you’ve been up to and just all your latest and greatest.
whatever you would like to talk about for a minute.
Karen: Absolutely. I’m really honored to be here, Michelle. I am at the University of Louisville. So my day job is essentially as a professor of strategic communications, and it will be 14 years in August, which has gone by very fast. So I’m looking forward to it.
I teach everything from PR, strategic communications, social crisis, influencer marketing. And so that really keeps me pretty busy, but I also have another role at the university is the [00:02:00] director of our student run agency called the bird’s nest, which is in its 3rd year. So it’s really giving students the opportunity to get practice with social media, PR, influencer work so they can get jobs when they graduate.
Cause that’s something that students are looking at. And but I’m also an author. So I’ve written several textbooks. One is in PR and then the other is also strategic communications and I have a personal branding book. I like to write even though I was a student that. was always complaining about writing and that five page paper in classes.
And now life has a funny way of, coming full circle where I’m writing 400 page books. But I also did some consulting and speaking in crisis, communications, PR and social and. When I’m not doing all of those different activities. I have a four year old Australian shepherd puppy who is, I’m trying to get in to be an influencer, still working on that.
I live in I’m pretty much a coffee fans, so I pretty much run on coffee and then I [00:03:00] am active in orange steering and like photography travel. But that’s just. A little bit about me, and I always tell my students, yes, professors are human beings. We do have a life outside of the classroom in our office, a little bit about me.
So I’m like, yeah, I try to also be like, a modern day professor. I’m like, I’m not living in my office. I’m also doing all these other things. You have to be in PR and social. You have to be active in the industry.
Michelle: Sure. And I see that you do. I think you do a lot of speaking trips and I’ve seen, you travel all over the world, really.
I’ve seen, some of that on your feeds. And so that looks really fun. That seems like it would be exciting. Oh,
Karen: it’s been awesome. I love traveling and I’ve had a chance and I’m very fortunate to have been able to go to some incredible places that I probably would have never been able to go.
Otherwise one of my favorite trips actually was a few years ago where I went to Riga, Latvia for the NATO Center for Strategic Communications Excellence social media conference. [00:04:00] And I really was like, wow, I would have never gone to Latvia and otherwise, but it was a really amazing experience.
And so it was a lot of fun. So I love traveling. I love speaking. And so I’ve been very fortunate and very grateful for the opportunities.
Michelle: Yes, we will look forward to your next, your next journey, your next trip. So thanks for sharing a little bit and tell us about, tell us your dog’s name because we were just chatting about that before.
Yeah. So my dog’s name
Karen: is Mando. So I got him actually almost four years ago. And it was right, again, a little bit after COVID and I remember, like probably everyone else during COVID, I was catching up on various shows. And I was watching the Mandalorian which I’m obsessed with baby Yoda.
I thought his real name. I thought, no, he’s always going to be baby Yoda to me. But I was watching the movie and the nickname for the Mandalorian was Mando. And I’m like, that was like a great dog’s name. And so I made the decision to get. [00:05:00] Mando like right before Christmas in 2020, and the breeder asked me like do you have a name for your dog?
I’m like, oh, yeah, Mando. So yeah, and I am a big Star Wars fan too, so it’s, he’s the sweetest dog, so
I
Karen: should have called him Zoolander though, because whenever I take pictures of him, he’s I’m here for the camera. I’m like,
really?
Karen: You’re just such a cheese ball. But he’s
Michelle: that’s a great name.
I think it’s it’s a little, I don’t hear it very often. So I think it’s, it is a little bit unique, but yet people understand, where it comes from because of course, I watched during, I watched the Mandalorian back then. So
I
Michelle: get it right away. And we already see some folks weighing in say singing your praises talking about.
I’ll put this up here. So we know that Dr. Freeberg, maybe I should be calling you.
Karen: Oh, I’m Karen. Thank you. Yeah, no, I actually have multiple names now. Like I have people like, so I do in my classes, some of my students call me Dr. [00:06:00] Freeberg, Professor Freeberg. I always Professor, maybe just because it reminds me of Harry Potter.
It’s like Professor McGonagall.
Michelle: Even though
Karen: I have so many students, I’m hopefully not Snape. But I have a friend, Chris Strub, who’s awesome. He does a lot of non profit social work. He calls me Dr. F. He’s that’s the one name that I get to call you. And then my students in the Bird’s Nest now are calling me Dr.
Free. That’s something too. I will pretty much answer to pretty much everything.
Michelle: I just think that’s very nice that we already have somebody singing your praises here. And I want to say if people have questions as we get into this discussion, please post the questions. We’ll do our best to answer the questions.
We don’t get to them during the discussion. We’ll try at the end. And yeah, we’re gonna, we’re gonna jump in here because the first thing that I want to talk about is I have been in PR for a long time, and I am curious how I feel like there’s always, not always, but often a [00:07:00] disconnect between PR and social.
Sometimes a client will bring me in to help with both. Sometimes I’m just doing PR, and I’m definitely more, I know a lot more about PR than social. The social media experience I have is mostly for my own business and through my own experience. So I write LinkedIn posts and things for clients. But anyway, often they have a separate social media agency, team, person, what have you.
And I just feel like sometimes it’s hard to get the PR and the social working together, collaborating, being plugged into what each other is doing. So let’s talk a little bit about that.
Karen: Yeah, absolutely. I would say that this kind of hits. to me as even a professor in education is in pr like florida, the masters of S at Tennessee.
So my backg Was inner wave and woven within all of the different things that I was doing in terms of projects and what, and I feel that [00:08:00] PR like my foundation that I got NPR really helped me really understand how and why we use social media, because a lot of times people think, Oh, you just, like each of these different platforms, they focus on the tactics that I was always looking at things like, okay, what is the strategy?
What are the insights? What are the relationships, the community that we’re able to do? What’s our story? So I was trying to interweave and, like the different principles of public relations within social, but when I actually started writing my textbook in social media it was funny.
I went out through the proposal, like with my publisher Sage and they sent out the reviews and everything. And one comment and this is going full circle in a minute. One comment said, what is a PR professor trying to do writing a social media textbook? Because they okay.
People thought, oh, social media falls under the wheelhouse of marketing or it’s completely separate. And I’m thinking PR in many ways interweave it basically aligns very well with social. There is a natural connection. So [00:09:00] I thought, and then years later, when I was writing my. PR book.
I got a comment saying, what is the social media professor doing writing a PR book? And I’m like okay.
I
Karen: guess you’re the
social media.
Karen: Yeah. Honestly, of the disciplines out there, PR and social really work together. I’ve been brought in occasionally to be like, okay, speak PR language to social, social speak, to PR.
And so I had to do a little bit of translation, but a lot of times people who are working in social now have that foundation in PR. So I do feel that. From my friends that are in the industry, that is their background. And so I think there’s a lot of similarities, more similarities and differences between PR and social and working together.
But I do feel that social does bring forth, like when you’re working in PR, a lot of us have studied PR or have worked in public relations, where in social you’re getting a wide range of different backgrounds. Maybe it’s a, like someone started off in [00:10:00] English and then moving into social because they’re doing copywriting and or they are videographer taking that storytelling from a visual standpoint.
So there’s a lot of different specializations with social and it comes in with different backgrounds. So I think that could also be something too. But at the end of the day, I feel all teams should work together and collaborate.
Michelle: Yeah, I feel like content, I always feel PR social content all go together and I usually, I think they are usually falling under the marketing umbrella.
However, it can’t be in silos and expect to, get the same. results as you would if you were syncing up and working together. So I’m always trying to get, people to talk to each other. And for some reason I feel like they’re just sometimes, I don’t know. I feel like sometimes people disregard social, but they, sometimes they disregard PR.
Sometimes it’s either way or sometimes both,
Karen: yeah I 100 percent agree. I love the comments that people think, Oh, I have so much respect for the [00:11:00] individuals in both PR and social that work tirelessly that they’re doing the campaigns. And I tell them every day. I’m like, I thank you for what you’re doing, because I’m able to bring and talk about your work in my classes to inspire the next generation.
Everyone that’s working practice I really respect what they’re doing, but it is frustrating when you see in social if there is something that goes wrong, everyone’s oh, it’s the interns fault. And I’m like no, no, it’s not. Or they think it’s easy or anyone can do it. It’s not hard.
Or you don’t need to go to college to go and practice and be part of social media, which I’m like, okay. There’s many different pathways to go into social, not we can leave off the, negativity there, but then PR, it’s like you just send a press release and that’s what you do, or you host parties with celebrities or event planning those are areas that are, very much specialized, but there’s so much more to that.
So I think a lot of times people are like, they have, I think both social and PR have. Different challenges of perception. I always find it interesting that people think that what we do in PR is like [00:12:00] scandal with Olivia Pope. I’m like, I love her outfits, but no, we don’t have, we do crisis communication and management, not to the level of war.
All we have to do is post a selfie, and it will go viral. Emily in Paris. And that’s, so I’m like, okay, so there’s a lot of perception, but I feel that, yeah, like in terms of being discounted, I’m like, but I think every profession has something like that, but we have to be our best advocates as spokespeople by what we’re doing, the actions and value that we basically bring to the table.
Michelle: Yeah in B2B PR, which is what I specialize in, we don’t, we, I’m not really planning parties, that’s not really, I would, if they have an event and they want me to weigh in, I certainly would. But that, I have I yeah. No, that’s not really what we’re focused on.
And the other thing I would say that I think about sometimes is that PR and I have, this, of course I’m not, it’s just not my first year in PR, but PR has been around before we had social, before we had [00:13:00] content marketing. And so PR pros have been doing. Similar, things for a long time, and so that’s why I always feel like those with kind of a solid strategic communication, PR background, whatever you want to call it.
I know different colleges call it different things now. We’re all about branding and naming
Karen: something different.
Michelle: It’s so confusing. Because when I studied, it was journalism. So I, we were PR within journalism and they don’t have that program anymore, really, where I went to school either. Anyway, the point is that I feel like that background is a gives you a very well rounded Curriculum in most cases, to tackle positions within any of these types of fields.
Karen: Oh, 100%. And when you’re talking about rebranding to I think yeah, as I said, my background is in PR, but I actually, when my role and at Louisville is a professor of strategic communication, and I can tell you, Michelle, [00:14:00] this was back in, 2011, when I basically got the position and I had some PR faculty members in my community that were like, they thought that was like the kiss of death for me.
They thought, Oh my God, Karen, strategic communication no, it’s not going to know what you’re doing. This is, it’s not a PR position. And now everyone like that I know of is rebranding to be department of strategic communications with PR and advertising below it. And I’m just like.
Okay. So yeah, it’s all about blending together, but you’re right. We do content. We understand media training and that’s so important now with influencers, like where I did a study a couple of years ago now with two colleagues. One is Guy Golan from TCU and the other is Brian Smith, who’s now at Ole Miss.
And we actually did a study of looking at influence of relations and how it really is this new wave of media relations. But you’re more likely with influencers and building those relationships and negotiating contracts, but also deliverables. And all of these different [00:15:00] brand trips and experiences, activations, and I’m like some things just evolve, but they still stay the same in principle.
So there’s a lot of. Traditional skill says that PR, whether you’re in the classroom or in practice, I could immediately shift over very easily to social. It’s just called different things. But I think what’s helped me in communicating these principles, with students has been Jeannie Dietrich’s puzzle model.
It really gives you a full understanding. Here’s the, media PR earned, kind of components. Here’s okay, how this social way of into it. So it’s really a nice graphic that kind of illustrates all of the different components. So props to Jamie for that. Thank you. And I’m a visual person myself.
So I’m like, yes, this is fantastic to have as a resource.
Michelle: Yeah, that kind of plays right into, the next question I was going to ask, which was what can we do to Better collaborate and break down some of the silos. And I do, I use that Peso model graphic whenever I do a talk. I, cause it just [00:16:00] helps people visualize it because I think sometimes it’s not the same when you’re just trying to explain it.
When you show them, it makes a lot of sense. And yes. We like Jenny and yes, Jenny has been here to talk about FASO because I’m a big
Karen: fan of it too. Oh my gosh, it’s been both of my books. I’m just like very grateful to her. But yeah, in terms of breaking down silos, I think in any kind of situation, whether you’re going into a completely different industry or situation or even discipline, I think understanding the lingo within that area is crucial.
So I think on both sides. It’s like going to another country, like you want to know the customs, you want to know the best practices, the etiquette, and really fully immerse yourself and say, okay, I want to be able to communicate and make a good first impression. They don’t completely be like, okay, we’re keeping our silo walls up, but oh, no, you’re besties, let’s work together.
And I find, in what I work with social teams, understanding what certain terms that they use and what are different practices, [00:17:00] like knowing the difference, for example, between listening and monitoring. It’s one of those things where I’m like, okay, this is, the lingo and the practices, whatever.
But then I think on the social side, understanding like, okay, what are the goals and objectives and key things that PR needs to know? Like, how do we work together? So I think like that’s the biggest thing is understanding lingo. And I speak this from experience because with my degrees, like I, especially in my PhD program, I had a cognate area in marketing.
And so I remember when I was actually, I did a fellowship at GM, as part of the plank center fellowship for educators, which That was one of the best experiences that really allowed me to have this bridge and breaking down silos was I was technically part of the PR team, but I also had to work with social and marketing and they okay, Karen, you’re like our Venn diagram in the middle, like you have all of these different areas.
Now we’ll go talk to the teams. I’m like, okay. And so understanding the lingo and asking questions like, Oh, what are your metrics? This is what you’re looking for. And I remember there’s this one guy who was in charge of GM’s [00:18:00] like database marketing, and I was having questions for him and he just sat back and he was like, I don’t get this.
Like you’re in PR and you actually understand like what, like I’m doing here. And I’m like, yeah, because I want to, see what, how we can work together and not have silos. And it was like, okay, cool. But yeah, it has the language, within their field. If you’re able to, understand it and make the effort and say, okay, if we’re working together, let me know what your background is.
How do I work here? So I it’s going to a different place, speaking language, trying out the cultures and just being seen. Hey, we’re all, why can’t we be friends? Like I always seem have that song playing in my mind already. It’s
Michelle: We’re friends here. Let’s work together.
Yeah, we shouldn’t be territorial because I have seen that happen in both. Both cases. I’m not, it happens. People are again, humans and it happens, but it doesn’t really help when people are so like. I just again, no one is trying to encroach on anyone else’s territory.
It’s [00:19:00] just trying to make, do more for the organization, the company, the cause, whatever it is, and I think that does. Yeah. There’s a lot of territories.
Karen: Everyone kind of says there’s a big part of who owns social. And I actually cover that in my textbook, because if you talk to someone in marketing, it’s like social follows under our warehouses, same with PR and journalism.
And then, there’s people that are like social, it’s his own entity. So it’s like who rules. And so I think instead of treating it like a game of Thrones kind of situation, wherever it was fighting with each other can we just come into harmony and be like with the Avengers?
different perspectives, all coordinating, showcasing our expertise, but then learning from each other. And so that’s but yeah I’ve, there’s a lot of territorial, elements, in terms of who wants to be the expert in these various fields, who is doing the best campaigns or who has the most.
And I’m like, why is this too short? Can we all work together? Because if we spend our energy on working together, we’ll do great things. But if we spend too much focusing on territory issues, we’re not going to get everything done.
Michelle: Yeah, I think we can borrow [00:20:00] from each other. Those are the examples that I bring up sometimes is that, if you’re in PR, maybe the content team has an article that you might be able to repurpose for our media or Something we’re working on in PR would be repurposed on social.
Of course we want all of our earned media coverage to show up on social with the tag to the publication and the journalist who wrote the story or, the podcast that aired the episode or whatever. So I feel like that is just that’s just. Table stakes. That has to be happening and it doesn’t always happen though.
So that’s why I’m like I don’t know sometimes how to get in there,
Karen: and I think too, that’s one thing that I’ve tried to do with our student agency, with the bird’s nest Oh yeah, that’s
Michelle: so great. That’s just,
Karen: it’s so much fun. I’m so inspired with the students, but we’ve taken a model where there’s different because this bird’s nest, we have different shell teams.
The students were very excited about that. Like little shells. I’m like, okay. They have different areas that like, we instead of having a top down [00:21:00] approach, we almost have viewed it as like an equal kind of like setting. Like I, I was, basically revisiting King Arthur’s court and Camelot.
And so I was like, yeah, round table that we’re all able to bring in different things together. And that I think it’s important for us to, be able to respect and kind of entwine, the different perspectives. But I do tell the students like, yes, you may have your different roles, but you’re going to be.
On each other’s teams and you’re gonna have to learn and collaborate and work together. So there’s times when our operations team is working with a content team and then our strategy team is working with outreach on something. So they’re able to understand not only the different functions, but also the different roles and backgrounds of the students.
Because I think the more experience and insights you’re able to get and to be bring, brought to the table here, better ideas happen. More. Integrated perspectives are able to bring forth and then you might be able to say, Hey, we’re able to address some early warning signs or some things that might have been missed if we didn’t have these individuals as part of.
So I’m trying in my own little like [00:22:00] role, here at the University of Louisville, try to build that and encourage the students to say, we don’t need silos. We can, we need to work together.
Michelle: Yeah, that’s so valuable. I was going to mention that when you brought it up. Yeah. Earlier the student lead agency, I just think, wow, would that have ever been a cool thing when I was going to school?
Cause that’s real world experience. And that’s, I think, having a child that already graduated and when going to college next fall, I’m like it’s so important because I think as parents, we see, the need for the child to be able to get a job when they graduate. And if you don’t have any experience, actually like understanding what it is you studied.
I just, I don’t know how that it’s challenging.
Karen: Yeah, no, I really wish that I had something like that in school. And I think that we had some professional, opportunities. But I was a track and field athlete, so that both at Florida and Southern Cal, and so there was only so many things that I was able to do besides, or the way that [00:23:00] I describe this with my students is I used to throw things for a living.
I don’t now. But but yeah, the expectations, for PR and if students want to go into, PR social media roles. There was 1 job that I saw that wanted 20 years of social media experience. I’m like. Yeah. I don’t even know like
years.
Karen: Yeah. 20 years and like all of these different roles and I’m like, you’re looking for, I don’t, not even a unicorn at this point.
I think it’s important. Yeah. I’m speaking into this as even a textbook author. There’s some things that textbooks don’t teach you always. It’s Oh, okay. I try to provide as much real world applied work as possible in my classes, but nothing beats experience like, Oh okay. This is something that.
I get to, talk to the students about here’s a professional, lesson, to, work with clients or work, and managing different teams and stuff, but having that experience in those stories is very powerful. Yeah,
Michelle: I had to get mine at it actually working at an agency.
I think that was the best actual education I got before. a consultant and just learn how to [00:24:00] like work with multiple clients and juggle multiple projects and campaigns. And yeah. Yeah. It’s really a lot if you don’t have anything, internships would help, but anyway, we can get a whole job.
Yeah. I love to talk about that. Cause I have a lot of thoughts about that, but I just want to say that I love what you’re doing. And I think that I think it’s really important. So it’s been a lot
Karen: of fun. It’s been a
Michelle: lot of fun. I’m sure those students are really much better prepared.
Karen: Oh, yeah.
We, I’m very proud. We’re in our 3rd year. We have a 100 percent employment rate, which I tell the students I have a method to my madness. I inspect what I expect with the students, but I also tell them I operate more like a coach, and I feel like in mentorship of both in PR and social I think we need more of that in the industry.
So I tell them that, they’re the ones sweeping the boards, we’re getting jobs and opportunities, promotions. And so I’m just here in the sidelines, cheering them on, but it’s been very rewarding.
Michelle: That’s so [00:25:00] nice. I just love that. I can just, I can feel that you’re, proud of them.
And that’s, I love that. Yeah. So let’s shift gears a little bit and talk about just the current state of social media. Maybe I should just put the dumpster fire. Or any
Karen: dog that was surrounded by fire. Fine, fine. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle: You had shared a post. They had done a study. It analyzed 21 million posts for more than 1 million accounts across eight social media platforms.
And so we can talk about some of those findings, but it just feel free in general to, share your thoughts.
Karen: It’s never dull. Working in social. I like the thing I like about PR when I was studying is that you’re doing something every new every day and then social you’re like times that by a thousand and realize that things that were okay one day or gone the next or one [00:26:00] campaign is hot right now.
And then the next day it’s Oh, that’s so last week. I think it’s very interesting with, to see how like social has definitely evolved, like the platforms have evolved. Yeah. I think, for example, that LinkedIn is having its creator era, and If you would have told me a couple of years ago that LinkedIn would be this, I’d be like, the free
kids app.
Karen: I don’t know about that. It’s surprising. And I think that it has different lifespans and changes, et cetera. I still feel, with even the state of social, I try to look at things from a balanced perspective. Obviously, there’s lots going on. There’s a lot of things, a lot of challenges, a lot of issues.
But at the same time, I am very much an optimist where I do still see good. I still see the amazing people that I’ve been able to connect with it thanks to social media and the opportunities that it’s afforded me. I would not be where I’m at today without it. So I’m always forever grateful for the different platforms and allowing me to talk and help my students and [00:27:00] be able to afford opportunities for them, but also myself.
So in, in terms of, yeah, the state I think too, that it might be, it’ll be interesting to see what happens this year, like in terms of, what are the trends? Because I think that we’re seeing kind of the shift, for different practices across the different platforms, some platforms are going to get more attention, more resources allocated to it.
But then we’re also seeing the different sub areas, like influencers and creators are shifting a little bit. Long form is becoming more popular with the rise of newsletters and podcasting, but I still feel that social has a very strong play of, still connecting people, sharing stories and being able to build opportunities across the board.
Michelle: I have to ask a question that just. I just wrote down because I struggle with this and I would love to hear your perspective influencers versus creators. Yes. What’s the difference? What is the difference?
Karen: So the influencer can be a creator, and a creator can be an [00:28:00] influencer. I would say, definition wise, an influencer is anyone that can motivate someone to take an action based on what they’ve said.
And an influencer doesn’t necessarily have to be just Only on social media. It also can also be someone who may just be your everyday person who has a very strong level of expertise, but they’re able to communicate authentically across the board. And Jason Falls, he’s a good friend of mine, has a great podcast and book called when influence and talks about instead of influencer marketing, he says it’s influence marketing.
So you be, he argues that you can be an influencer. Regardless of having a social media platform. So I would say influencer is basically someone who has the ability and power to motivate individuals to take action based on what they’ve said or a creator or whatever, a creator is known for what they like.
They have to be able to create, whether that are video clips, those are podcasts they’re creating something of value. Exciting and, important for their community. So a creator can be [00:29:00] very influential based on what they’ve said. But there is, like there is that Venn diagram where you can be an influencer and creator.
And I look at this is an OG example. Casey Neistat, as one is he, created very powerful vlogs, so that was, but he became very influential in the space regarding that. And then. You also see creators, like the influencers right now, like Alex Earl shifting course where she is becoming an influencer with these brand deals with sports illustrated Carl’s jr.
But there are some that basically we just want to stay in the creator space because the influencer term in many ways in the industry has been viewed as a negative thing. Oh, because of. Fire festival and all the cancel culture kind of incidents and is basically where for the PR person is like, Oh, crisis, situations when you think you’ve seen it all way, there’s always something to talk about.
But so that those are the main differences that I see between an influencer and a creator.
Michelle: Yeah. I feel that there’s a little bit of an factor sometimes with both of the [00:30:00] terms, even though I think some of us probably probably do create, but don’t call ourselves a creator because we maybe don’t understand.
And it just sounds I don’t know again, it’s like calling yourself an influencer. I think too. It’s we call ourselves a creator or could we let other people put that? What does that work like?
Karen: No, I think you’re a great creator, Michelle. You have a podcast, you create, content.
Absolutely. I view like what I do is, I do create content, in many different formats and I think it really depends on like the format your content is, basically packaged in, because there’s some people that are very skilled in videography. And for me, I’m like, I can draw.
Like a stick figure and then I know my way around a camera just enough to get myself into trouble. But for me writing is where I’m like, okay, I got this, so I was on my blog for years and now I have a newsletter and I have my books and yeah, I’m And this is for someone who did not like writing 5 page papers in college.
So again, I think my professors are laughing at me, at this point full circle [00:31:00] now, Karen, and I’m like, did
Michelle: you say you started a sub stack?
Karen: I did. Yeah. So about a week ago, I started a newsletter because it was based on a. Student suggestion. Actually, I was in Nick Cicero’s social media strategy class at Syracuse University.
So Nick and I like go back to and he’s a OG analytics Twitter icon. Like he is the best. So I talked to him and his class about a week ago because they’re using my social media textbook and. A student, reached out and was like have you ever thought about writing a newsletter that kind of talks about the current events?
You like writing and she said that I think it would be very valuable to students and a light bulb, came off and why haven’t I done this already? And it’s called the carefree newsletter. And the name comes from a good friend of mine. Her name is Angela Pratt. She’s a professor at North Carolina, and we were in grad school together at Tennessee, and she just said, Karen, you’re very, easygoing.
You have this [00:32:00] good work life balance, just very carefree, but it takes my first name and last name and puts it together. I’m like, Oh, that’s cute. Yeah. So it’s been fun. It’s been fun. I like building things. Honestly, Michelle I don’t really, I never really like study like entrepreneurship or anything, but I love building and growing things.
I think it’s a passion project that I want to work on. And slowly, but surely it’s growing. So I’m excited.
Michelle: I think try new things is keeps things interesting, right? When you’ve been doing something for a while, it can, you got to keep challenging yourself, pushing yourself a little bit, try, I feel
Karen: the same way.
Yeah. And I also feel to have a group that keeps me very accountable in that realm, like with students, like I, with my role and speaking and consulting and working, if I’m telling them to do things in the classroom or, with the bird’s nest, it left me like Okay. Yeah.
Dr. Freeberg has done an audit before. Oh, yeah. She has done a presentation, for this company. So I have to practice what I preach. And we actually started a newsletter for the birds nest. The students [00:33:00] were very passionate. Our PR team actually wanted to do that. They wanted to create content and value.
And so I thought I like, I want to encourage them to do what they need to do, but I need to follow suit too and practice again what I preach.
Michelle: Yeah.
Karen: Yeah. And then what’s hot and what’s not gosh, I want to talk about
Michelle: YouTube for sure, because I see a lot I see LinkedIn being mentioned and then I see a lot about YouTube and of course we could talk all day about Twitter slash X.
We could talk about TikTok and Swim. But I still have, I think about
Karen: YouTube.
Michelle: Oh yeah.
Karen: This is my hot take. I still will do the Twitter bird because that was like the best. That’s the best social media icon. So sorry, Elon, Twitter X. So I, for my book, I have to basically change that from Twitter X, but I love the Twitter logo.
So rest in peace. But yeah, like in terms of the platforms, like I think, especially as you said, with YouTube with the TikTok ban that happened for 12 hours and now it’s back and more in the midst of to be determined. Yeah, with YouTube [00:34:00] Shorts, videos, I think that was, everyone thought that Instagram would be the benefit of the TikTok ban, but I think YouTube, yeah, is definitely where, and that’s where a lot of people are, gravitating to, but I think in social media, it really will come down to who’s shifting, the platform dynamics that are also who’s shaping culture.
Where do people go? And one person that I would recommend maybe following to understand subcultures and cores and influencers creators, where people are going. His name is Matt Higgins. He’s at one hour media, no one blue. Okay, I’m having a professor moment here. I will make sure to share the link.
But he’s in Philadelphia and that is awesome. And he really does some great work with his agency on looking at the different subcultures and cores, and social and where people are going because. We know as certain groups go to one platform, brands and everyone else follow.
So it’s always a life cycle.
Michelle: Yeah. And I think it’s hard if you’re advising clients on where to spend time, because obviously with B2B, [00:35:00] LinkedIn’s kind of always been the place. So that’s not so in question, but I think if you’re doing consumer PR that would definitely be a question. It’s where should we go?
And I don’t know that we know the answer. No, I
Karen: Yeah it’s always a question because some people are saying we need to go here. And I’m like why? It’s because everyone’s going, I’m like, are there your customers going? Are your audience members? And I, my rule of thumb is with any platform is to always claim your username.
Regardless if you’re on a planet like
that,
Karen: yeah. There’s been a history of cyber squatting where there’s people that like, if a new platform comes on, they cyber swap on, let’s say the apple handle or the LinkedIn handle. And they just basically hold it hostage or ransom, until the companies are like, okay, we’ll pay you X amount of dollars.
And so that really, is something that a lot of brands are focused on. But yeah, it’s. Always constantly changing, in terms of the platforms and everything.
Michelle: Yeah, because my advice to clients has always been don’t bite it off more than you can chew.
Because if you try to be on 10 [00:36:00] platforms, you’re probably not gonna do them all. And then there’s nothing worse when you’re trying to get media attention for a client and they go to the social media. platforms and they haven’t posted in six months. That used to be a thing. I don’t know if it’s as much of a thing anymore, because as you said, if you’re going to claim their handle claim their username and then not, but they might not post.
So maybe we can’t really, we have to throw that out.
Karen: Yeah. Something to like, I think it’s important, I’m very transparent, like about saying, yeah, I’m just claiming this is my handle. But for me, I look to see where people are going. And yeah, there’s only so many hours in the day and so much coffee you can consume basically to keep up with all the platforms and everything.
But I go and see where my audience and communities are located where I need to be in terms of the conversation. So I spent, I’ve been spending a lot more time, like I would say on Instagram and LinkedIn. Just because with my students and, engaging in the community, they’re definitely on instagram.
But then on linkedin, I had everything. I’m still on, twitter acts, in various conversations there. And then tick tock on there, [00:37:00] basically getting inspiration and case studies of which brands are doing some incredible work, which ones are like oh, there’s lots of crises that I can talk about or whatnot to do.
Or how my students. Fully embracing being an adult when you’re getting excited about cleaning products and appliances. So that’s key. What
Michelle: about reporters? Do you have any sense of where reporters are now? Are they still on Twitter X? Are they migrating? What do you think? I hear different points of view on that too.
Yeah. Yeah.
Karen: I think there’s. It’s interesting. I’m trying to think of the friends that I have. Yeah, I definitely think they’re, still, I think they’re still present on Twitter, but then some of them have migrated to threads. They’ve gone that route or they’ve done more saying okay, I’m going to go on LinkedIn.
So it really depends, I think, on who you ask, because there’s some people that still realize, yeah, breaking news is still happening. And I know when our local kind of media market in Louisville, like when we’ve had all these weather reports, like you basically, people are like still going to X They’re not necessarily [00:38:00] going to Instagram and threads because they really are like, okay, I just want the news.
And so I’m going to go, I think it’s just been like, so ingrained in our brains that Twitter’s where you go for up to date real time news. And, but when I’ve seen other trade publications, I’ve seen, other publications like ad week, ad age, e marketer, PR week, I see a lot of those publications go directly and just publish on LinkedIn.
I would say the one that I haven’t seen a lot of traction has been Facebook with. Yeah, that’s been like interesting. That’s
Michelle: an interesting one. Cause I feel like, a lot of people want to leave Twitter slash X, but again, like if you’re in PR, I feel like you have to stay there. But then Facebook is there for, because of the groups.
I think people are, a lot of people have groups down there that they don’t want to give up.
Karen: Yeah, I actually started a Facebook group actually for social media professors and we’re about 2304 wide. Yeah, so it’s grown. And [00:39:00] so some people were like we should have a Twitter account. We should go on tick tock.
I’m like, I don’t know about tick tock, but LinkedIn is another option. But then there’s others that like, Okay. They told me they’re like, that’s the one reason I keep coming into Facebook is to be part of this group. So I think groups is, definitely a big part of the reason. So I think you’re getting it you’re with the platforms, all the platforms are stealing from each other.
So that’s always fun to watch. It’s I feel, I always feel sorry for Snapchat. I’m like, man, you guys got a lot of your stuff stolen and integrated. But it’s one of those things, that I think is, something that we have to be aware of, but then. I think every place has a function, so if it’s Facebook groups and then Instagram is like storytelling and content creation.
LinkedIn is connections content. Twitter is breaking news. So I think what you’re seeing is this, role of purpose and, reason, for going to certain platforms and then Pinterest seems to also get. Ignore it a little bit that they actually, I love what they’re doing with their positivity messaging and you can go [00:40:00] down the rabbit hole with looking at some fabulous recipes on Pinterest, speaking from experience.
Michelle: That’s what I don’t really, I don’t visit very often. I think I’m pretty sure I have an account, but I haven’t done anything over there for a
Karen: while.
Michelle: So maybe I need to
Karen: couple hours, Michelle, and just say, I’m going to deep dive into Pinterest. And then you’ll wake up and wait, 3 hours.
Michelle: You make a good point about them borrowing from each other.
Because the thing that always got me was how LinkedIn started with the reactions and then trying to encourage people to share like their everyday, like human content. But I feel like I always felt like it was. It, I wish it would have just stayed what it was because I do feel like we can go other places to get, somebody’s, political views or whatever.
I don’t need LinkedIn necessarily, unless it’s to do with business, which of course, but yeah, sometimes, but yeah,
Karen: no, I agree. I lost count on how many people are going to do stories. You had that kind of, moment with LinkedIn. I’m like, okay, [00:41:00] no LinkedIn we’re not doing that. It’s cute, but now we’re not.
And then. X Twitter had fleets. And I’m like, how is it how are we going to do this? How no. And then yeah I think that platforms need to realize that they are there for a purpose. It’s very tempting to get, oh, we need to do this ad or we need to do this feature. We need to be like these other platforms.
It’s very, motivated to try to do what everyone else has said. But as you said, Michelle being true to who you are, like, their overall kind of ethos and like purpose, for platform, I think is it’s really important. And you’ve seen some platforms that have strayed away from that and they’ve lost.
Users or they’ve gotten their works, or other features absorbed in other capacities. And it is a lesson of, staying true to your mission or, risking, basically alienating the core group that got you there.
Michelle: I think that’s here. That’s a good point.
What I, another thing I try to remember and encourage clients to think about is where is their audience spending time? That’s where they need to be [00:42:00] focusing. So even if if you, I think sometimes, when you work in communications or marketing or whatever, you want to call the umbrella that holds PR and social and all that.
Sometimes we have our own Preferences for certain platforms. And that doesn’t really matter because if our audience isn’t there, we’re wasting time, even if that’s where we like to be. Yeah,
Karen: 100%. Yeah, no I do shock my students when they find out that I have a tick tock and I’m like I am a professor that teaches social media and writes books.
Yes, I will be on that. And they’re like but I tell them I. I always love, with being where your audience is. One of my audiences are students. And so I’m able to I want to see who are they looking for influencers? Who are they gravitating to for brands?
Always surprising. And as the years go on, I clearly realize we are in a different generation. So that’s, but I always, I feel too, it’s you’re able to understand the context. You’re able to understand like, Oh, what this trend sound means. And [00:43:00] and it’s interesting with some of the students, like they talk about like trending sounds or gifts, like I took my students who are directors of the versions out to dinner and they wanted to do a tick tock kind of turning sound from white chicks.
And they’re like dr. Prima, you know this. And I’m like first off, I remember when the movie came out like 20 years ago. So yes. And two. Obviously, I know that, the trend that we see here. So that was fun, being able to relate and have really contacts in that.
Michelle: Yeah. We’ve covered this question I just wanted to put it up there cause we were already talking about it.
I’m like we just went right into it, but but yeah, I think it’s going to be, it’s just. You will have to think about where’s your audience spending time. So if your audience hasn’t left a platform, you probably need to stay present on that platform. Again, I think it’s much more complicated for B2C than it is for B2B because LinkedIn’s got to be the place for B2B.
Karen: I think too, like there’s ebbs and flows. That’s why I think like it’s like a lifespan, for social, like you don’t want to completely abandon your account like, or deactivate it completely. [00:44:00] Because you never know what’s going to happen. Social is such a dynamic industry that one thing could be happening now, but then what happens?
And it’s I think with the Twitter X alternatives, so many people were ready to jump on and, go on other platforms, which fine. Great. That’s awesome. But then, a few weeks go by a few months and they realize, okay, I can’t sustain this. It’s not the same right back, so you just, I think what companies need to do is really in 2025 is really.
One, listen, to where your audience is going, hearing the talks, read up on the industry. What are the trends that you need to be aware of, read reports, but then also read the room. What are people concerned about? What are they talking about? Where are they going? And I think listening to where and having a conversation.
But we’ll be more informed and more effective in where we need to go and spend our money like for ads, going to formulate strategies, reaching out to the key people. But sometimes we’re just so out of the gates, [00:45:00] like to bring up a Kentucky Derby. We’re so out of the gates.
We’re like, Oh wait, Oh, I should have thought about this further. Maybe not my, sometimes it’s okay to hit the pause button and take a step back in this day of rapid evolution and challenges and constant change and just say,
Where do we want to go here? How is this going to look five years from now a month, two months down the line and just think, take a moment of pause.
Yeah. Yeah,
Michelle: this tiny object syndrome is so prevalent in what we do. And I just feel like sometimes it’s so much better to just maybe not be the first adopter, the early adopter. Maybe you need to do, take a breath and kind of watch and see what’s happening before you jump too far into a new social media platform.
And that’s
Karen: sometimes too, in PR, it’s we advise clients like, let’s think about that. Can we hit pause? Can put a pin in it? Just look at Gather all the information ahead of time because it is very tempting because everyone wants to be first and have that 15 seconds of fame to go viral or whatever.
But yes, that [00:46:00] will last only a certain amount of time, but you have to look at the long game. So many people on social media think short, like there’s have a moment, but then down the line, it’s do we remember what went viral, like in 2021? Maybe from the history books. And if you want to go down that realm for memes, etc, but at the, now it’s I feel that I love using Pixar, references.
So I use, of course, Ratatouille and The Incredibles because I’m obsessed with Edna Mode and Anton Ego. This is, that’s in the past. It distracts from the now. And I feel like that’s where people are at. It’s okay that’s so last minute. What do you have? That’s new, like anti ego.
What is the PR social media professor have that or professional have that’s new? And it’s like this constant feed. And so sometimes you might be like, I’m going to take a moment and appreciate, like the situations, this current state and see how I can navigate, Effectively and have a long lasting impact rather than just 15 seconds of, viral fame necessarily last.
It could [00:47:00] open up opportunities, but not for everybody.
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I think there’s just, I love the stop and think because I just feel like everybody’s, always in this on this hamster wheel of let’s, we got to do this. We got to do this right now. We got to go. And really, it’s more of the long game.
And it’s also your own media back to pay. So for a minute, you’ve got to focus on, your own website, your own media, and then yeah. I think you add on, cause even from a PR perspective, if a client doesn’t have an up to date website, that’s the first thing I’m probably going to tell them to do, because if you start getting reporters attention, they’re going to go to your website, they’re going to go to your social media.
So you want to make sure that’s the way you want before you attract attention to it.
Karen: Also, reminding people like it’s. It’s like a marathon, not a sprint. And if you have a full blown effort of going a thousand percent, all the time, you’re going to burn out. There’s so much burnout in the industry.
And so you just have to take a moment to say, what [00:48:00] do I want to spend? How do I spend? And so I actually, I have blocks of like how much time I’m going to spend on social I do a little bit every day. I try to grace like some of the practices that I did as a student athlete, because you’re not going to be working out 24 seven, like the day before the Olympics.
You’re not every day in preparation, but I’ve already seen this in the way of like PR and social media professionals and professors who wants to become the AI expert. And I’m like, okay. Okay. You’re going to burn, I’m really glad that you’re enthusiastic about these topics. It’s changing, it’s going forward, but you have to look at how will you be able to sustain this?
Will you have the energy to and so I think some people will absolutely, they’re passionate, they love it, but I think others are going to get burned out. Just because it’s the pressure of constantly being on could take a taxi. So it’s about having balance. I think that’s what companies should also have here too, not just for themselves, but also for their employees, in who are working in PR and social to have [00:49:00] that balance of understanding, like the dynamics.
And I think social media especially has been turned quite a bit, even though it’s. Constantly changing dynamic. It has matured in some respects compared to where it was in the 2000s, but it’s still, you need to have kind of that balance and saying, we’re going to not like, I would say, pause to the point where you’re taking a siesta and just, a five month vacation kind of thing.
No, not doing anything. I’m not saying that, but just take a little bit of breathers, relax, touch grass. Watch the birds chirp,
Michelle: I think it’s really important right now for mental health purposes to not even from a PR perspective, we have to know what’s going on, but we shouldn’t really immerse ourselves in the news and social doom scrolling, all of that.
I think it’s more important than ever. And I see people they are maybe pulling back a little bit. I’d love to see some statistics on that. What’s the usage now versus COVID versus now. Probably.
Karen: There’s a great researcher who’s actually at the University of Tampa.
Her name is Brianne Marks. Her whole dissertation was on social [00:50:00] media wellness. And she basically was like, how do you basically have this work life balance and keeping To your mental health and protecting it, but also being successful in the marketing profession in social media.
I know I have a friend, Karen Sutherland, who’s down in Australia, who actually had this wellness course that she taught in social media. And so it is important. It absolutely. And that’s why I make sure every day that I, mando makes sure that I walk several miles a day because he needs his exercise.
So that’s good for me, but it’s important to have balance, across the board, because if you don’t, then it really does impact, your day to day activities.
Michelle: Yeah, we just can’t, we have, like I said it’s a question. I actually want to have somebody on to talk about the big question that we need to understand like how do we find that balance for ourselves, meet our professional, requirements while still taking care of our own, mental health and wellbeing.
Karen: My solution is coffee, but. I don’t know if he, for everybody’s more anxiety, [00:51:00] but my extended family Swedish. And so coffee is like part of our bloodline. I feel like it’s a major food group, but no, I, I think having balance and figuring out, I think also to figuring out what works for you in that balance is also crucial.
There’s, That could be similar or different to every person. So that’s, yeah, that’s like the million dollar question right there, Michelle. So if you get someone on your show, definitely let me know. I’ll be like, okay,
Michelle: I’m
Karen: going to
Michelle: tune in. I’m trying to find a person, the right person for that.
Yeah. I think it’s a big question right now, but and I don’t think it’s going to change this year’s. No. I think
Karen: what you might maybe want to do is maybe have a panel, have people from different places, like maybe have a practitioner, have our academic and then maybe, a rising professional because I know with mental health and social, that’s a huge topic with my students.
And I do, even with the agency in my classes, I tell them, I understand that you have a life that is in my class or this thing, the bird says it’s not the only thing you’re doing. And maybe [00:52:00] getting some perspectives of what has helped them, what has worked for them, and various rules that could also be something beneficial.
Michelle: No, I’d love to talk about that. We are coming right up to our hour and I promised I wouldn’t go past an hour and I thought we might run out of things to talk about, but we certainly did not. Continue, but we will leave it there. And I appreciate everyone who tuned in or who will watch this later.
And I certainly appreciate your time, Karen. I enjoyed this thoroughly. So thank you so much.
Karen: No, it was great, Michelle. No, I had a wonderful time and keep up the amazing work and what you’re doing for our profession and industry. It’s really wonderful. So thank you.
Michelle: Same to you. Thank you so much.
And everyone, please join us. We’ll be back for two new episodes in March. And thanks so much for being here for another episode of PR explored. Thanks so much. Thanks.
